Author Topic: Death Penalty Vs Life imprisonment  (Read 16965 times)

Alpha

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Re: Death Penalty Vs Life imprisonment
« Reply #75 on: January 08, 2010, 03:16:02 am »
Hello Borakk :)

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I have changed my debating style. I don’t like quoting long texts. ‘Your assumption’ summarizes your writings in previous context. ‘The FACT’ represents my arguments  ;) .

Your new style is arbitrary. You could have used "Alpha's arguments" instead, or "pros", "cons"... My posts were not "assumptions", they were FACTS. What, was I playing doll house all this time? :P
Whatever, I'll stick to the 'traditional' method, I'm quoting.

By the way, the bullet-like icon you see below "Change colour" is used for quoting.

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The FACT: Wrong, it only deters crime in countries where it's carried out quickly and absolutely.  In some countries if you are convicted of murder, you are taken outside and executed publicly, usually within 24 hours.  This deters serious criminals who commit crimes, for sure. However, people of developed nations will never stand for this. We Bangladeshis do not support this. It is too cruel and inhumane for us. I don’t think Mauritians will like it too. So, this method of execution will not be employed by most countries, due to public opposition. Therefore, this assumption is made unrealistic.

Just a small simple question: when did I say that criminals should be executed on public roads or streets?

Yes, I'm advocating capital punishment, but I haven't dictated any procedures. Criminals can be killed in different ways: hanging, execution, poison, etc. The public execution that you are talking about mostly happens in Arabia, not in Bangladesh or in Mauritius. You Bangladeshis do not support this, that makes absolutely no difference to the Arabian King. Every country suits itself. (Therefore, your "FACT" is made unrealistic.)


"It is too cruel and inhumane"--- here I would like to poke my nose a lil bit. It is too cruel and inhumane to kill a criminal in public, to be mentioned, lawfully and judgmentally? Is it humane to 'hunt' an innocent with a samurai in public? Where does your 'citizenship' go then when the victims are running in the streets all bloody with parts of their bodies broken?

"This deters serious criminals who commit crimes, for sure." Okay, you agreed. Good then, I will not have to explain my 'rational' again. ;)

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The FACT: Unfortunately, it costs dramatically more to kill those same criminals.  The typical death penalty conviction must go through several levels of appeal.  All these appeals must be heard by the courts in virtually every case.  Attorneys and solicitors are paid dramatically more than prison guards.  One prison guard is responsible for several prisoners, where one prisoner on death row typically employs several attorneys and legal staff for many years, all while still using your tax money in prison.  Life sentences are rarely appealed.  The typical life span in prison is about two dozen years. Interestingly, many of the most violent prisoners get murdered in prison.

You just mentioned above that public execution is usually carried out within 24 hours. And you mentioned here the typical lifespan in prison is about 24 years (2 dozen). The difference between hours and years is not small, is it? 24 hours make a day. One common year consists of 365 days. Supposing a day per prisoner costs $ 1. The ratio, for the time spent in prison after trial, would look somehow like this:

Death penalty : Life imprisonment
        1 : 8766

Now countries have a choice: sensitive hearts or sensitive pockets.

"Attorneys and solicitors are paid dramatically more than prison guards." So, does it mean that a criminal's case is permanently closed if he is sentenced to life imprisonment? Why are you comparing the cost to only the earnings of prison guards? What about food, repairs and maintenance costs of prison cells, attorneys and solicitors paid dramatically to get the criminals in and out repeatedly, etc? Think about the number of crimes that can be prevented if the death penalty is implemented, and the cost that can be saved therein.

Besides, I had also mentioned about poor, desperate people trying to get themselves a place in jails when they cannot find a place in our routine world. Favouring life imprisonment is going to spread this 'infection'. Treating this 'infection' is going to be more costly even.

"Many of the most violent prisoners get murdered in prison."
Or is it the other way around? Many violent prisoners murder the inferior ones. You raise another point for me: keeping violent criminals in prison is a danger to the other prisoners.

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Another unfortunate fact that I have to mention is that, though I tried my best to make you understand that it is the percentage of GDP which counts, still you are not agreeing with me. Just have a look at Bloomberg or any other business channel. Or have a look at any advanced economics book or even newspapers. When government expenditures are mentioned, the percentage of GDP that they occupy is given more importance, rather than the sum or its opportunity costs.

FYI, I am an Economics and Business Studies student myself. And I know why figures are compared using the percentage method. What I am trying to tell you since a long time: get OUT of your books and face the harsh reality. To compare figures using the percentage method is more of politics than business. These comparisons play with the psychology of citizens, of nations. A sum is compared to the GDP to make it seem much minor than it actually is.

If, as you say, the money spent on prisons is not a big deal for America, then why not give this money to under-developed countries as grants? Sure, $ 28.4 billion, which is not a big deal to America, makes a BIG difference to the lives of the poor.

Again, I will talk about justice and social security, briefly this time. ;)

"Iron cuts iron" (loha lohe ko kaatta hain  :D)

Get rid of weeds because plants and flowers need to blossom in a place safe for them.

Fortunately, the death penalty has not been abolished by some countries. Or else, today we would still be having utterly dangerous criminals like Saddam Hussein (just an example, no offence meant) alive. And millions of people would be losing their lives because of ONE man.

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Best of luck! (for criticizing my arguments  ;)!!!)

I'm not a fan of luck. ;) If you didn't know, well now you do. Nevertheless, thank you.

P.S. I like debating with you too. Your enthusiasm is good. Hehe, within limits*.  ;D
P.P.S. My apologies, kept you waiting. Had a peak period.

« Last Edit: January 08, 2010, 03:19:57 am by ~Alpha »

Offline $tyli$h Executive

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Re: Death Penalty Vs Life imprisonment
« Reply #76 on: January 08, 2010, 06:54:04 am »
When we are debating in this topic I am more interested in politics since it concerns the whole country, than business.

By the way, your arguements looked like a bit like superficial to me this time.

Alpha

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Re: Death Penalty Vs Life imprisonment
« Reply #77 on: January 08, 2010, 08:05:10 am »
When we are debating in this topic I am more interested in politics since it concerns the whole country, than business.

By the way, your arguements looked like a bit like superficial to me this time.

That's what you say every time.  :P And when it's your turn...

I prefer shut my mouth, and not to retaliate.  :-X :P Would not be "me".

Offline $tyli$h Executive

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Re: Death Penalty Vs Life imprisonment
« Reply #78 on: January 08, 2010, 08:29:00 am »
Yeah thats better.

By the way, reading your reply, I can sense your fear of failure from here.

Alpha

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Re: Death Penalty Vs Life imprisonment
« Reply #79 on: January 08, 2010, 08:31:19 am »
 :P :D

I don't fear "failure"... Your senses are not working properly, have a check.  :P




Offline $tyli$h Executive

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Re: Death Penalty Vs Life imprisonment
« Reply #80 on: January 08, 2010, 09:04:38 am »
You are very well aware and self conscious of the fact that you are on the verge of losing this debate, aren't you? Just admit it.

If you don't I will reply to your arguements and I am pleased to assure you, you will be busted.

Alpha

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Re: Death Penalty Vs Life imprisonment
« Reply #81 on: January 08, 2010, 10:29:06 am »
You are very well aware and self conscious of the fact that you are on the verge of losing this debate, aren't you? Just admit it.

If you don't I will reply to your arguements and I am pleased to assure you, you will be busted.


Oh la!

Better get them clear, wrong methods:

1) Degrading the posts of your opponents does not assign weight to your own.

2) You think too much about "winning" and completely forget the essential: "debating".


I am waiting for your reply. You must have got mine by now.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2010, 10:31:22 am by ~Alpha »

nid404

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Re: Death Penalty Vs Life imprisonment
« Reply #82 on: January 09, 2010, 02:49:42 pm »
Oh la!

Better get them clear, wrong methods:

1) Degrading the posts of your opponents does not assign weight to your own.

2) You think too much about "winning" and completely forget the essential: "debating".



Agreed

Your ideology is incorrect stylish...u can never win a debate.

Offline angell

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Re: Death Penalty Vs Life imprisonment
« Reply #83 on: January 09, 2010, 07:30:14 pm »
I think it should be up to the person...

Dying may seem horribly shocking - yet I think any sane person looking upon long-term consequences may prefer to die quick rather than spend a locked up, dark dark life.

On the other hand, he may just get lucky and break out of prison..hmm..
oh churiyaan charha dey..
oh mehndiya kara dey..
oh jhanjara pawan dey...
On the dance floor oh mundiye...Nach Baliye!

--~*O yaara dhol bajaake.. O yaara jashan mana ke!!




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Offline $tyli$h Executive

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Re: Death Penalty Vs Life imprisonment
« Reply #84 on: January 10, 2010, 12:10:30 pm »
Sorry everybody I am at present a little busy with my studies. School started from today.

@Alpha:

You may have noticed that a few days ago, nid404 was debating with me. She was replying to my arguements and I was debating perfectly on my side too. But lately, she was sacred of me -sacred of getting busted. So she stopped replying to my arguements with her. All in all, she surrendered the debate.

I would call her A VERY WISE LADY to have considered this, BECAUSE she knew she would have got busted if she continued arguing with me. That is, she had foreseen the consequences of her actions. Therefore, I would recommend you to consider the same thing - Surrender before getting busted! ;)

Alpha

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Re: Death Penalty Vs Life imprisonment
« Reply #85 on: January 11, 2010, 02:17:26 pm »
@ Angel

I would have agreed to your opinion if the victim was given a choice too.

Thank you for joining in. :)

Keep it up ;)!

@ Borakk

My stamina is not so weak that it's going to be scared by, again, your silly comparisons. (Sorry for my frankness).

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I would call her A VERY WISE LADY to have considered this, BECAUSE she knew she would have got busted if she continued arguing with me. That is, she had foreseen the consequences of her actions.

Well, let's make it clear: Nid is Nid and Alpha is Alpha.

I have a recommendation for you too: drop the "bragging" and start the "debating".

P.S. You can take your time, I'm not in a hurry. School just started for me too...

Offline $tyli$h Executive

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Re: Death Penalty Vs Life imprisonment
« Reply #86 on: January 11, 2010, 06:14:42 pm »
Alpha: in your first paragraph, you said that you do not support executing criminals on streets. Now I have a question for you too "Which method of execution would you prefer if death penalty is implemented?" Answer in a clear cut way. Either executing on streets or the 'normal' process of court. It seems to me you support the court procedures, but I need confirmation before proceeding.

I could have easily argued with other arguements too. But I need to know the answer of this question first to do so. On the other hand, I wouldn't give away my triumph card so soon, will I? And sweetie, you will soon get to know who is silly and who is not :) . Merely finding loopholes in my arguements does not necessarily make you smart. :-)

You have a great stamina? FYI I have a great persistence. 'Stamina' is more physical than mental. Winning a Debate does not require physical strength. AND winning or getting ANYTHING I want is ALL I care about, WHATEVER methods, right or wrong, I may have to apply. So, Before clicking the post button, check if your writing makes some sense.

You are not a fan of luck? Me neither! So, I wish you a bad luck this time. Doesn't make any difference does it, sweetie? :)

Worst of Luck!!! :)

Alpha

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Re: Death Penalty Vs Life imprisonment
« Reply #87 on: January 12, 2010, 03:08:41 am »
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Alpha: in your first paragraph, you said that you do not support executing criminals on streets. Now I have a question for you too "Which method of execution would you prefer if death penalty is implemented?" Answer in a clear cut way. Either executing on streets or the 'normal' process of court. It seems to me you support the court procedures, but I need confirmation before proceeding.

I said it already, I will not judge. It is up to the country to decide. It is up to their government.
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I could have easily argued with other arguements too. But I need to know the answer of this question first to do so. On the other hand, I wouldn't give away my triumph card so soon, will I? And sweetie, you will soon get to know who is silly and who is not Smiley . Merely finding loopholes in my arguements does not necessarily make you smart. :-)

Merely bragging does not make you smart either. I don't think am going to waste my time with your bragging and all. For the last time, if you have arguments, just start them right away and spare us the "bragging" part, we are not all sitting idle.

By the way, we write arguments*.

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You have a great stamina? FYI I have a great persistence. 'Stamina' is more physical than mental. Winning a Debate does not require physical strength. AND winning or getting ANYTHING I want is ALL I care about, WHATEVER methods, right or wrong, I may have to apply. So, Before clicking the post button, check if your writing makes some sense.

If you don't know the very most essence of debating, it doesn't make sense to debate then. You SHOULD be knowing that. Check your definition of "stamina". It also refers to the capability to endure things mentally for a long time, in context, to endure your blabla for all this while. If I used it, I know why I used it. Seems to me like you don't. Were it someone new, I would have urged an opponent vote. Borakk, debate, and debate correctly.

Your persistence is baseless, in case you don't know. If you win, it's going to be through the RIGHT and CORRECT methods, through your arguments, NOT your stupid disguised warnings, threats, comparisons, whatever. Sorry, have bad news for you, you are not going to win with your "WHATEVER" methods, I will henceforth ignore all the stupidities which are not supposed to be in a debate.

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You are not a fan of luck? Me neither! So, I wish you a bad luck this time. Doesn't make any difference does it, sweetie?

If it makes no difference, and you know it doesn't, then I think it's better to "shut up".

And since you like comparisons so much... Unlike you, I do have the courage to bear defeat.  :)
« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 05:33:24 am by ~Alpha »

Offline $tyli$h Executive

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Re: Death Penalty Vs Life imprisonment
« Reply #88 on: January 13, 2010, 05:20:31 am »
So, its up to the country. They will choose either hanging mercilessly within 24 hours or normal process of court hearing.

First, lets suppose they choose that merciless procedure. In this case, their expenditure is negligible. BUT the fact remains that this method is not realistic for every country. So, in case you havent noticed your ratio will only apply to a few arabian countries not for the majority. Because people of most other countries will not support this method.

In case a country choose court proceedings, the real problem arises here.

I can guess that you have absolutely no idea how much a mere visit to a lawyer costs. Take this as an example in real life.

One of my family members had an extortion case filed against him. The normal penalty for this is imprisonment for 12 years. This was back in 2008. At present the court has given the verdict of no punishment. But his expenditures till now on lawyers and others were 600000 tk or 8000 usd. This is excluding the bribes he had to pay.

Now suppose the penalty was death and his crime have been proved. In this case, he would have tried to save himself in any way possible. He would have appealed many times in the court. If his expenditure for one year is this much, imagine if the case dragged on for 5 years due to appeal.

Thus your expenditure would be greater on the death side. And most hardcore criminals are usually rich.

The fact remains that expenditures are greater on the death side compared to life imprisonment.

If a criminal gets life imprisonment penalty he is less likely to appeal. Thus the expenditures get lower. But in death sentence, he would certainly appeal and expenditures get higher due to this. And higher than life imprisonment.

Oh sweetie, I am sorry reality has been so harsh to you. Its been pretty easy for me though. It depends on how you take it. Easy for those who KISS. Difficult for those who are keen on making it difficult.

You were saying something about America donating 28 billion to poor countries. This is a very unrealistic assumption. America would never donate this because this would go against its interest. If it does, it will surely demand something in return or pursue its objectives indirectly which YOU are not capable of understanding at this level. This is logical. Because I would do the same if I was in control of US.

I take business studies, ict, economics and computing in A level.

Your assumption about the percentage figure is thus a mere assumption. Its not reality.

Offline angell

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Re: Death Penalty Vs Life imprisonment
« Reply #89 on: January 15, 2010, 12:33:53 pm »
You may have noticed that a few days ago, nid404 was debating with me. She was replying to my arguements and I was debating perfectly on my side too. But lately, she was sacred of me -sacred of getting busted. So she stopped replying to my arguements with her. All in all, she surrendered the debate.

I would call her A VERY WISE LADY to have considered this, BECAUSE she knew she would have got busted if she continued arguing with me. That is, she had foreseen the consequences of her actions. Therefore, I would recommend you to consider the same thing - Surrender before getting busted!


Im sorry executive, you can get all stylish if you want - but this attitude doesnt hold well here.

Nid will have her reasons - this is not debating spirit!

I'd greatly appreciate it if you abstain from such pride and wool headed ness next time.

Thank You.

Oh and Alpha, SHUT UP is not appreciated either.

oh churiyaan charha dey..
oh mehndiya kara dey..
oh jhanjara pawan dey...
On the dance floor oh mundiye...Nach Baliye!

--~*O yaara dhol bajaake.. O yaara jashan mana ke!!




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