IGCSE/GCSE/O & A Level/IB/University Student Forum

Qualification => Subject Doubts => GCE AS & A2 Level => Sciences => Topic started by: D-chris91 on June 08, 2010, 05:53:25 pm

Title: Physics P5, HELP!
Post by: D-chris91 on June 08, 2010, 05:53:25 pm
Hi, this is really bugging me. I am a prepare-by-self-with-God's-help student and I don't have anyone else to ask. How does one calculate the absolute error in log of a quantity. For example, current, I= 2.6 +/- 0.1A. What is log I including absolute error?
Also, can anyone list safety precautions for Paper 5?
Title: Re: Physics P5, HELP!
Post by: falafail on June 08, 2010, 05:57:08 pm
the error in a logarithm is the difference between the max. value and the "best" value
for example, if you have to find log x, where x = y +/- z
you find the max. value, which is log (y + z)
and the best value, which is log y
the difference between these two values is the error.
Title: Re: Physics P5, HELP!
Post by: ny2ko on June 08, 2010, 07:10:21 pm
I usually take the difference between the max value and min value then divide by 2. that seems to work
Title: Re: Physics P5, HELP!
Post by: D-chris91 on June 08, 2010, 07:18:06 pm
Also, can anyone please teach me how to find areas under curve, in case of such a question arising in Paper 2?
Title: Re: Physics P5, HELP!
Post by: falafail on June 08, 2010, 07:52:14 pm
Also, can anyone please teach me how to find areas under curve, in case of such a question arising in Paper 2?

i don't remember ever having to do that in paper 2? :-\

but here http://www.mathsrevision.net/alevel/pages.php?page=2
Title: Re: Physics P5, HELP!
Post by: aorta on June 08, 2010, 07:55:53 pm
Also, can anyone please teach me how to find areas under curve, in case of such a question arising in Paper 2?


In paper 4, we count the squares and the convert them to the appropriate units. So, I don't think that you really need to integrate.

Anyways, you don't have to find the area of curves but the area of a triangle...
Title: Re: Physics P5, HELP!
Post by: aorta on June 08, 2010, 08:04:14 pm
the error in a logarithm is the difference between the max. value and the "best" value
for example, if you have to find log x, where x = y +/- z
you find the max. value, which is log (y + z)
and the best value, which is log y
the difference between these two values is the error.

Can you please explain this?! I don't get it..

Lets say we have: 3.5 ± 1.0 , and we want to find the log and absolute error.

The log would be 0.544 but what would be the absolute error?! If I use the above equation you gave, I'll get 0.012 but the MS answer is 0.017!!

How do you do this?
Title: Re: Physics P5, HELP!
Post by: falafail on June 08, 2010, 08:15:42 pm
Can you please explain this?! I don't get it..

Lets say we have: 3.5 ± 1.0 , and we want to find the log and absolute error.

The log would be 0.544 but what would be the absolute error?! If I use the above equation you gave, I'll get 0.012 but the MS answer is 0.017!!

How do you do this?

 ??? ??? ???
i don't know i got 0.12 :/
Title: Re: Physics P5, HELP!
Post by: Twinkle Charms on June 08, 2010, 08:17:08 pm
??? ??? ???
i don't know i got 0.12 :/
yep me too got 0.12, either ways mentioned here, ull get 0.12.
Title: Re: Physics P5, HELP!
Post by: aorta on June 08, 2010, 08:18:12 pm
??? ??? ???
i don't know i got 0.12 :/

 :-\  It's May/June 2009 By the way.
Title: Re: Physics P5, HELP!
Post by: falafail on June 08, 2010, 08:23:26 pm
:-\  It's May/June 2009 By the way.

it is 0.012. 0.016 is the FIRST value, DECREASING TO 0.006.
0.012 is in the range so i'm prettty sure it's right..
Title: Re: Physics P5, HELP!
Post by: Twinkle Charms on June 08, 2010, 08:25:00 pm
:-\  It's May/June 2009 By the way.

there u go rong, u said error is 1.0, whereas its 0.1, and in the mark scheme tht is the range given for the first answer, that is the first error can be either 0.016 or 0.017.
Title: Re: Physics P5, HELP!
Post by: Twinkle Charms on June 08, 2010, 08:28:51 pm
ok my doubt jun08 (paper attached)
how do we know which is the dependant and independant variable?? =\
Title: Re: Physics P5, HELP!
Post by: aorta on June 08, 2010, 08:29:37 pm
it is 0.012. 0.016 is the FIRST value, DECREASING TO 0.006.
0.012 is in the range so i'm prettty sure it's right..

OMG!! THANK YOU!! It says OR ... lol OKayy thanks a looot :)
Title: Re: Physics P5, HELP!
Post by: falafail on June 08, 2010, 08:34:48 pm
no problem :)

ok my doubt jun08 (paper attached)
how do we know which is the dependant and independant variable?? =\
are you going to sleep soon? i'm doing nov 09 atm. i'll do june 08 and help you when i'm done if you're still here and if no one else has :P
Title: Re: Physics P5, HELP!
Post by: Twinkle Charms on June 08, 2010, 08:36:35 pm
no problem :)
are you going to sleep soon? i'm doing nov 09 atm. i'll do june 08 and help you when i'm done if you're still here and if no one else has :P
its ok do post it anytime , ill chk late nyt or early morning, buh pleasee do explain also how do we decide on which is dependant and independant variable in any question?  particularly this ques =\
Title: Re: Physics P5, HELP!
Post by: girl_92 on June 08, 2010, 08:36:42 pm
im sooooo confused how do u find this erroe thing this log and all tht plz sum1 reply
Title: Re: Physics P5, HELP!
Post by: Twinkle Charms on June 08, 2010, 08:38:15 pm
im sooooo confused how do u find this erroe thing this log and all tht plz sum1 reply
its oredy expalined in the first page, check that.
Title: Re: Physics P5, HELP!
Post by: falafail on June 08, 2010, 08:39:34 pm
libra_92, check the previous page -_-

its ok do post it anytime , ill chk late nyt or early morning, buh pleasee do explain also how do we decide on which is dependant and independant variable in any question?  particularly this ques =\

well generally the independent variable is the one you vary, and dependent is the one whose value DEPENDS on the independent variable.
like for example if you have V=IR, with constant I
varying R, will change the value of V
so R is the independent value and V is dependent
Title: Re: Physics P5, HELP!
Post by: aorta on June 08, 2010, 08:40:39 pm
ok my doubt jun08 (paper attached)
how do we know which is the dependant and independant variable?? =\

It says in the question that the student is given sheets of glass of different areas.

'Independent variable' is something that you can vary, which the 'dependent variable' depends on..

So here, you can varying the the area of the glass will have an effect on the resistance, therefor R depends on A.

So R is the dependent.. and  A the independent..

Hope you understood what I mean :)
Title: Re: Physics P5, HELP!
Post by: Twinkle Charms on June 08, 2010, 08:42:57 pm
It says in the question that the student is given sheets of glass of different areas.

'Independent variable' is something that you can vary, which the 'dependent variable' depends on..

So here, you can varying the the area of the glass will have an effect on the resistance, therefor R depends on A.

So R is the dependent.. and  A the independent..

Hope you understood what I mean :)

so why dont we consider the lenght?
Title: Re: Physics P5, HELP!
Post by: aorta on June 08, 2010, 08:54:17 pm
so why dont we consider the lenght?

Hmm, I'm not really sure. Maybe because in the question, it says we are given sheets of glass of different areas and same thickness. So I guess we should just assume that they have already varied the length and got different areas.

I think that it's pretty much the same thing.

Actually, lets say that you are the student, you are given 5 glasses of different areas, and each glass has it's area written on it. So you'll just use the different areas, why bother to vary the length and then get a different area when it's already done for you.

So you just use them..  I think.


Title: Re: Physics P5, HELP!
Post by: aorta on June 08, 2010, 08:57:42 pm
Okay, M/J 2008, question 2 part a. How do you find the gradient and y-intercept??

I almost never get them right!
Title: Re: Physics P5, HELP!
Post by: nancy on June 08, 2010, 08:59:46 pm
guys it says- USE RHEOSTAT to keep current constant?

how do you do that???
Title: Re: Physics P5, HELP!
Post by: falafail on June 08, 2010, 11:31:19 pm
Okay, M/J 2008, question 2 part a. How do you find the gradient and y-intercept??

I almost never get them right!

rearrange the equation to give you y = mx + c
here you get ln R = ln Ro - pnx ln e
ln e = 1
so ln R = -pn x  + ln Ro
-pn is the gradient and ln Ro is the y-intercept

guys it says- USE RHEOSTAT to keep current constant?

how do you do that???
yeah i don't get that either :/


Zara, i tried doing that question but i really don't get it  :-\
i know you have to plot R against 1/A though, and pl is the gradient, and that was your question right?

woops my bad, that wasn't your question. well since you're varying A to get different values of R, then A is the independent variable and R is the dependent variable.
but could anyone tell me how exactly we're supposed to set this experiment up? i'm okay with the analysis and safety precautions and whatnot, just the actual experiment is like o.O
Title: Re: Physics P5, HELP!
Post by: Twinkle Charms on June 08, 2010, 11:37:49 pm

Zara, i tried doing that question but i really don't get it  :-\
i know you have to plot R against 1/A though, and pl is the gradient, and that was your question right?

woops my bad, that wasn't your question. well since you're varying A to get different values of R, then A is the independent variable and R is the dependent variable.
but could anyone tell me how exactly we're supposed to set this experiment up? i'm okay with the analysis and safety precautions and whatnot, just the actual experiment is like o.O

so right, i dunno tht myself, my question was about the dep/indep variables,>>solved, buh how to set up no idea =\

anyways i think we gotta give it a break, its 2 37 am here, i give up hope n goin to sleep, just hope and pray whatever comes we're able to face it -.-
Title: Re: Physics P5, HELP!
Post by: falafail on June 08, 2010, 11:40:06 pm
so right, i dunno tht myself, my question was about the dep/indep variables,>>solved, buh how to set up no idea =\

anyways i think we gotta give it a break, its 2 37 am here, i give up hope n goin to sleep, just hope and pray whatever comes we're able to face it -.-

hah yeah, hopefully we won't get anything about circuits or operational amplifiers. i absolutely HATE those stuff  >:(
i'm gonna go through june and nov 07 before going to bed. :(
goodnight & goodluck ;D
Title: Re: Physics P5, HELP!
Post by: Hwa1 on June 09, 2010, 12:08:28 am
operational amplifiers?!
*heart attack*
Title: Re: Physics P5, HELP!
Post by: falafail on June 09, 2010, 12:10:55 am
operational amplifiers?!
*heart attack*

yeah.. someone posted this booklet with some experiments in it.. and one was about operational amplifiers.. i was like :o
Title: Re: Physics P5, HELP!
Post by: Hwa1 on June 09, 2010, 12:23:17 am
anybody got a link to said booklet?
Title: Re: Physics P5, HELP!
Post by: falafail on June 09, 2010, 12:26:54 am
anybody got a link to said booklet?

ermm look for a post here that's called "SUGGESTION FOR PHYSICS P5" or something like that
Title: Re: Physics P5, HELP!
Post by: Hwa1 on June 09, 2010, 12:30:58 am
Thanks! found it  ;D
omg its 90 pages long..... *sniff* :(

and yeah the op amp one is nasty =/
Title: Re: Physics P5, HELP!
Post by: falafail on June 09, 2010, 12:34:30 am
Thanks! found it  ;D
omg its 90 pages long..... *sniff* :(

and yeah the op amp one is nasty =/

yeah, i skipped it XD
and you don't have to go through all of them.. just the last couples of pages are the experiments
anywho, i'm off to bed. good luck tomorrow :)
Title: Re: Physics P5, HELP!
Post by: Hwa1 on June 09, 2010, 12:42:46 am
Yeah same I'm totally knackered...
Thanks, good luck to you too! :)