Teachers and Students > Debates
Death Penalty Vs Life imprisonment
O.T.13.:
Okay, lets just leave it at that
Alpha:
I have much to read...
Join in few days...
After am not busy, lol...
Keep going...;)
$tyli$h Executive:
--- Quote from: ~Alpha on December 25, 2009, 01:24:11 pm ---I have much to read...
Join in few days...
After am not busy, lol...
Keep going...;)
--- End quote ---
Looking back at my post, dear, I think I may have been a bit harsh. I sincerely apologize for that.
Alpha:
@Omer
--- Quote ---Well now thats a value judgment, every one has his own :). I can understand how sometimes the family of the victims will be mad and enraged; will this be the case one year later? They lost this dear one (whoever he may be), nothing tangible is to be gained by killing the criminal. Some find that the sheer "serving of justice" is good enough, others think its not. For me personally, I believe the general rule is no, it ain't good enough. But thats not with each and every single case.
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I agree it's a value judgement. For me, killing someone does not only affect one life but a whole family and innocent children who find their lives take an abrupt bend. Yours is a value judgement too. But I wouldn't go to the extent of saying that my value judgement is the general one. People have the right to think whatever they want to. Some voice out their need for equality, like I did, some want to be more lenient, like you. But the rest of the world does not really care--- we cannot generalize. That's why the law is here to make its own judgement, taking into account the human rights, of course.
--- Quote ---Weeeeeell ::)
Not all murders are "first-class" (not sure aobut the term) murderers. A lot of murders are "self-defensive" or "unintentional". They deserve punishment, but not the maximum, don't you agree ::). And about the life-time ones, heres another way to look at it; death is an instant punishment, prison is not; death yields no tangible rewards not for the state nor the victim, prison can yield some sort of reward for the state (a lot of prisoners do some form of work while they're in jail), the victim
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Defence attacks, as I said earlier, are given special treatment. People who commit crimes unknowingly also are special cases. Every case is not a special case. Here, I am talking about cold-blooded criminals, those who do not think twice before putting a full and final ban on someone's life. We also have contract killers or serial killers, who have killed several times, and the irony is that their killing activities continue even if they are kept confined in jails.
Death is an instant punishment--- the law is once and for all rid of the dangerous criminals. Prison is not--- this is a cause of 'worry' for the law and the nation: prisoners have to be kept alive, they have to be given food, they can always escape, our peoples (nations) will always live in fear and uncertainty. Again, there are MANY prisoners in jail. Capital punishment does not mean you kill each and every person who breaks the law. Capital punishment is for the high rated criminals ONLY. By the way, the victim is already dead, HOW would he yield any reward?
Because human wants and desires are insatiable--- no power on Earth can put an end to that. That's why I believe the best thing to do is to send that person OUT of this world, to permanently end the person's (who has desires harmful to the world) life, and ultimately, those harmful desires. If money is the reason, who would not want more money? If emotions like "love", "jealousy" and "revenge" lead to the crime, what is the guarantee that they will not lead to other crimes? Open both your eyes, do we lack reasons in this world? ;)
--- Quote ---psycho hospitals are not exactly a walk thru the park now are they :D
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They are neither a permanent booking to the cemetry now, are they? :D
--- Quote ---Well thats what I am saying, sometimes love, jealousy, revenge; there will always be a moment, a "red zone" where a human will not be able to contain his emotions, when his brain is unable to discipline him; and ends up doing thing he normally wouldn't do, things he would regret the next day even if he wasn't punished.
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Sorry, a moment? This "red zone" comes only once in a person's lifetime? Let's say it does, and is uncontrollable. Still, is it a reason to kill? We have a world pop. of 6 billion people. If everyone of us moves on this hypothesis, we'll soon be having a world pop. of nil. :P
Humans by nature get angry at different things, different occasions. If someone is momentarily unable to control his emotions, then that's HIS problem. Why should someone else pay his life for it? I don't find it reasonable that LIFE is a price to pay for incapability to control emotions, esp. when an innocent pays for it.
--- Quote ---No, but whats the minumum life sentence do you get for killing, be it a "first-class" or a "third-class"? legal age is 18, lets assume you killed and served your sentence as a "third-class" killer; how old will you be by then? How much of your youth would have been wasted? Won't all of this come to the criminal's mind before he thinks about killing again? Yea i know I talked about the "red-zone" but it is possible if you have the right kind of pressure to control it.
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Nid mentioned an argument about a politician. People like these would not think about the part of their life which would have been wasted should they commit crimes. For them, to get a bail is very easy. Fine, for others, all of what you said will come to their minds before they think about killing a second time. But the death penalty would come to their minds before they think about killing for the FIRST time. There is a difference between a first time and a second time in our arguments: I want to save the first victim too.
--- Quote ---lol yea, on some cases the criminal's family can chip on, but thats only after they are sure he is absolutely and completely broke. Its not gonna bring back the victim, but it provides a tangible aid to the family of the victim. And remember, the criminal's family is not obliged to do so, its up to them at the end of the day.
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If the criminal's family is not obliged to compensate, it is very unlikely that they will give out so much money.
Loss of life v/s Loss of years of life
I am repeatedly talking about the "loss of life" of the victim, and its impact on his family, esp. children, if ever there are. Do not take "loss of life" to be mere words. Visualize them, try to dig for the meaning of my words in real life situations. You should find that the cost is equal to infinity.
--- Quote ---You said it yourself, SAME amount, the compensation in the top two cases is enough to um, compensate (can't think of another word :D) for the loss. The compensation "undoes" the crime, is this the case with the third case? I never said that the money is enough compensation, but I do know that it gives a tangible gain for the family of the victim, killing the criminal does not give any tangible benefit to them
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"Account" can be a good synonym. :D
Oh sorry, value can be the same, but no compensation "undoes" any crime. Money does not bring back a hand cut during an accident at work. Money just avoids complicated legal procedures that are usually cost inefficient. Money avoids the business from being sued. It avoids reputation damage. At the bottom line, money tells the victim to "SHUT UP". :P
This "tangible gain" for the family, which happens rarely, is NOT equal to what the family has lost: a member. While killing the criminal might have prevented this loss in the first place. Again here, money is being used as a medium to hide what is being told to the victim's family: "SHUT UP". Money is the barrier obstructing their search for justice.
--- Quote ---Agreed on pretty much the entire paragraph :)
True, a lot of governments are not doing what they are supposed to, but this is not a reason to raise the responsibility off it, actually we should press on them even more
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"A govt. does not make a nation. A nation makes a govt."
I can't find better words to explain what I mean...;) A govt. solely cannot make a big difference.
--- Quote ---Yes, I guess you can say it is synonymous with slavery. Sure the world is gonna go crazy "ooh no! slavery! tyrant! kill him!" but hey, slavery was something forced upon people who did not deserve it. My idea is more of a punishment, they practically "asked for it"
No, the government shouldnt get them capital either; the primary aim of this idea is to punish more than to raise the a country's GDP. Our great-great-great grandparents didn't have tractors now or harvesters now did they, but they still managed to farm.
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Your idea must differentiate between high rated criminals and petty ones.
--- Quote ---Um, get extra security?
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For whom? The criminals? Or the guards? :D
--- Quote ---Again, my failure to express my point properly; what i am trying to say is, justice, as "fair" as it is, is not necessarily always the "right" choice. best way I can express it (and i'm sure you're sick of me saying it agin and again) is the "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" thingy :D
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I understood what you mean... But justice has to be fair, that's why the law is represented as a blindfolded dummy.
--- Quote ---This is not the primary target, punishment is.
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My target is punishment too.
--- Quote ---True, but as i mentioned somewhere earlier, if my plan is to be followed, then the "prisoner yield" is not supposed to be available for the public market. it could be given to chairty, like maybe for the poor or the orphans, or it could also be given to the farmers.
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As I also mentioned earlier, your project must diff. between the high rated and low rated criminals.
--- Quote ---True, but killing the criminal will not get the lost life back either
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Nor will any compensation.
--- Quote ---Again, it is not equal, but it goes a long way
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While the way representing the loss of life goes till infinity...
--- Quote ---Last part i agree, first part, nopes.
--- End quote ---
LOL, that was a bit too much of philosophy on my part. ;D
Anyway, my first part meant:
Life is everything in life. "Everything" goes far beyond material possessions, relations and emotions. "Everything" cannot be described in words, just like "life" cannot be. :)
Alpha:
@Borakk
--- Quote ---This one caught my eye first!!!
Alpha, Dear, it seems to me that you have got a negative mindset!!! See this post:
Quote
Yups, we should all keep that in mind; one of the nice things about the recent debates is all of em have been in a friendly full of and manner lol
lol i thought yourea new member until i saw your avatar
This reply was by OT13. See the difference between the two replies! I wrote something. OT13 interpreted it positively, stating that we all should keep this sentence ("No offence implied") in mind. And you thought that I am accusing everybody of being barbarious?!!!! Oh my Goodness!!! So much difference between positive and negative mindsets!!! I didn’t know this before!!!
Anyway, you must keep in mind that, again, not everybody thinks like you and me!!! Try interpreting everything positively, dear!!! And you will roll on perfectly!!!
--- End quote ---
Primo, it's not in my habits to dictate what others should be thinking about me. Everybody has freedom of opinion. I respect it. Their freedom does not affect my stay in this world.
Secondo, a book is not judged by its cover. I find your comparison childish (no offence), leave it to the kids. Our age group is moving to maturity.
And tertio, this debate is not on "Alpha's mindset", nobody knows better what is in my mind. We are talking about "capital punishment and life imprisonment".
--- Quote ---Don't you deny that dear!!! You said "As I read the first line itself ...." . This effectively proves that you have come to your conclusion after reading the first line and have not read the whole paragraph!!! Just to tell you a point, I usually develop an idea in a paragraph, be it in a debate or essay! So, please read the whole paragraph carefully, then come to conclusions, and argue upon the whole paragraph.
--- End quote ---
"As I read your first line itself, I got surprised." I did not jump to my conclusion, else I would have stopped there itself. You've not taken into consideration the main part of my sentence. That's why I said: "MISS not".
--- Quote ---You did illustrate your thinking, dear!!! The thing which you call 'rational' is your own thinking itself! The 'rational' thing is different for many people!
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Between choosing to commit a crime and take the risk, and commit no crime and take no risk, I don't think that there should be any unclear reasons to justify the 'rational' here. I don't think that my 'rational' will be different from the majority.
--- Quote ---As an example, some of my friends become very sad and upset if their girlfriend leaves them for another boy!!! Seems like a nonsense idea to me, since it, strictly speaking, doesn't result in a personal loss or gain! She left a few days ago for India and will stay there for probably several years, and I didn't even care, except for saying goodbye!!! I don't even care if I get to see her again!!!
This idea seems 'rational' to me! However, when I tell this to a few of my 'heartbroken' romeo friends (as a consolation), they call me mad!!! I don’t have any emotions!!! And even says that I am not trustworthy!!! I am a betrayer!!! I am still a kid, though I am exactly six foot tall and weight 77 KGs!!!
It's left for you to decide, dear, which idea do you think is 'rational'?
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To me, both are not. Dwelling in the past does not help to solve problems. But love is not a trial and error process either. To consider yourself mature enough to venture into it when actually you are not is not the
first sign of maturity.
--- Quote ---However, I strongly disagree to this! God (Allah) will always make way for everybody's needs and wants! That is what I believe and I have full faith in him!!! A poor person who doesn't have anything to eat, will find a way to eat!!! He could do odd jobs, pull rickshaws or any other thing! If he WANTS to eat, and have a strong DESIRE to eat or achieve something, he WILL find a way!!! God (Allah) WILL show him the way!!!
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If he could, he would. By the way, we are not supposed to be discussing about faith. I am, you are, but every one is not a Muslim. Try to find a more valid argument.
--- Quote ---If you are unsure, please conduct a poll "Do people commit crimes to remain in prison?". In my previous point, I proved that poor peoples who have a DESIRE to do something do not commit crimes to 'remain in prison'. He will get his meal, anyhow. Please refer to that.
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Do all*** people commit crimes to remain in prison?
Again, do not miss parts of my arguments...
--- Quote ---Of course, they don't have the right to deprive others of their rights!
In Mauritius, you don't have honest police officers? Neither do we in Bangladesh!!! But I have travelled to some countries, among which Malaysia and Singapore are there. The native people of those two country (especially Singapore) are so proud to have a perfect legal system and honest police officers!!! When I wrote, I assumed that the legal system of that country is perfect, and without any dishonest police officers!!! It may not, at present, apply to your or my country, but it will apply to, for example, Malaysia and Singapore!!! Corruption is an exceptional case!!!
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Every country is not 'perfect', news.
--- Quote ---Don't you deny that, dear!!! Your quote...
Quote
A world infested with such people does NOT make our citizens' lives "safe". Walking in the streets with the constant worry of being attacked is NOT what I call leading a "safe" life. Going out with little hope of returning back in one whole piece (LOL ) is NOT what I call leading a "safe" life. Maybe for you, "safe" has another meaning.
... proves that you have misunderstandings about the definition of life imprisonment. Again, I repeat, the world will not be 'infested' with offenders if serious offenders like murderers or rapists are imprisoned for life!!! Again, I would suggest you to look it up in wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_imprisonment !!!
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Not all of them are imprisoned for life... Not all. It depends more on the judicial system of the country than on wikipedia.
--- Quote ---I am sorry, dear, but that was a lame counter-attack!!! Your quote ....
Quote
If we are still living in a world where shame is greater than temptation, I would be on the seventh cloud! That would be so idealistic! BUT unfortunately, the IDeal has no ID. It is rated R- Restricted. R pushes ID out of the world we are living in. What is IDeal is not Real.
.... was too difficult for me to understand!!! So, I advised you this, dear!!! I do not understand, on what basis, are you advising me to MISS!!!
--- End quote ---
And look who's going to ask for creativity below...
Okay, I'll make it clear. It was just a lil bit of Maths. ;)
IDeal, no ID, remove ID, remains "eal".
R pushes ID, now add R, to get "Real".
It was only to add something new to the debate...
The ideal and the real do not coexist, in general terms.
--- Quote ---On a side note: Try to be creative and innovative. You cannot do something out-of-ordinary on the competitive plane. You must make your own creative and innovative ideas and execute them!!! If you try to copy someone's ideas exactly and do not make any modifications, you will enter the competitive plane and will barely get something or lose!!!
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Well, I tried to be 'creative'... And you saw how well it worked. I don't understand what more I can do if my opponent does not understand what a "Tit for Tat" is.
--- Quote ---How many times should I tell EVERYBODY that expenditures, on any field are considered as a PERCENTAGE OF GDP. Why don't anybody understand this?!!! I'm tired of making everybody realize this fact!!! Again, if I have 100 billion $s, I won't mind donating $200m to these prisoners, will I? This 28.4 billion $ represents only 0.205% of the whole US GDP!!!
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Why don't you understand the diff. between a percentage and a sum? It seems to me that you have not read what I quoted. You are basing your % fig. on America's GDP, a highly developed country. 10% of $ 100 is $ 10. While 10% of $ 1 000 000 is $ 100 000. Percentage is the same, but with a VAST difference in amount.
This is a value judgement, your rational.
--- Quote ---Looking back at my post, dear, I think I may have been a bit harsh. I sincerely apologize for that.
--- End quote ---
No worries. :)
Life is too short... If we keep minding everything, we will never have time to appreciate anything.
Go on, you are good.
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P.S. I haven't given up... Was just taken up these past few days. ::) My apologies for the delay.
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